Is the mind an emergent phenomenon of matter? Or is matter a narrative imposed upon the world by the mind? Is gravity some mechanical force? Or merely invisible gremlins pulling you down because they don't wanna see you fly high?? The western scientific mind has essentially become mechanical. We, as in our conscious minds are merely byproducts of rote, predictable natural laws. Our emotions and entire experience explained away as biochemical processes. Ultimately deterministic. Modifiable through pills and chemistry. Psychological distress treated akin to a malfunctioning car engine. Love... merely serotonin and something about a guy named Darwin. I once had the pleasure of engaging with a brilliant young girl who was clinically depressed. Her occupation? Researcher at a company whose main source of income was antidepressants. Do I need to spell out the irony? Denmark is supposedly the happiest place on earth... How did we measure this? Go take a serotonin dopamine sample from each citizen's brain? (wouldn't even be surprised at this point). Even within its own scientific framework it self-contradicts. Assuming that consciousness == brain; the complexity of the brain is such that nothing can really be inferred about it. The complexity of interactions increases exponentially, making any inference of cause and effect computationally impossible. Who does the inference? Who observes the matter? A system cannot explain itself, nor can it create anything more complex than itself (a hint to so-called "AI researchers"). The subject/object split is merely a linguistic construct? Like perhaps most science and logic?? We made it up man... Or as the good old hippie Alan Watts put it: > The intellect cuts the world into pieces and proudly exclaims; "look the world is made of pieces!". We make up the boxes and stick things into it - then we feel smart about it. Given my profession and the fact that I like cars a lot, I have the greatest of respect for science. But not as a religion, set of values or world explanation. But as a useful tool. And as any tool, it has its uses and misuses - you don't brush your teeth with a belt sander. There's always an explanation for the explanation, always another atom to split. Just the mere word "atom" - the entity which is indivisible. It seems every other decade we've managed to find another atom?? An explanation for the explanation. Keep asking why, see how you'll enjoy life :-) It's like trying to look yourself in the eyes (without a mirror). Consciousness trying to explain consciousness through reductionist neuroscience is like trying to see your own eyes without a mirror. The tool can't fully grasp itself. Molecules → atoms → particles → quantum thingies → strings (whatever those are). The world explanation, the theory to explain all theories, always right around the corner. I suppose this is why I enjoy red teaming.... You get paid to poke holes in logic. At one point you realize there's no sense in proposing anything anymore? Well... if you've ever wondered why everyone, possibly even yourself is walking around being sad boy nihilists? **It's because we believed the wrong story.** Consciousness isn't a bug to patch. It's the system itself. And the system can't debug itself. Welcome to the hard problem. Enjoy your stay. -\ Cockroach Systems - we break your code and your metaphysics (no extra charge) ---